Talk:Australian Shepherd

Naming

The article states, "They acquired their name because some of the Australian sheepdogs arrived in the United States with boatloads of Australian sheep." To me, this says nothing about where the name comes from (or what the "some... sheepdogs" were) so I'm still wondering what the explanation is, and how we can state it here. Gef05 (talk) 02:38, 7 February 2012 (UTC)gef05

The origin of the name is not reliably placed. The statement quoted by @Gef05 is presumptive - possibly true, but there is nothing definitive to either back it up or refute it. For various examples of how other authorities have described Aussie history (and naming), see https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/dog-breeds/australian-shepherd-history-behind-breed/ (This is, in my mind, probably the most accurate, as the author is the ONLY one I linked here to refer to modern DNA studies of the breed genetics.) http://www.australianshepherds.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Breed-History_Hartnagle.pdf (The Hartnagles are a historic Aussie family, and Jeanne Joy is a named authority by birthright. However, others in the breed world question her emphasis on the Spanish heritage.) https://workingaussiesource.com/working-aussie-source-stockdog-library-australian-shepherd-origin-and-history-by-gwen-stevenson-part-1/ (I think this source tends strongly to repeat the various oral histories of Aussies, but is useful in the detail provided) http://www.lasrocosa.com/history.html (The best compendium (overall) I have found on the history of these dogs. There are evidence based facts offered. However, there are also assumptive jumps in logic to fill in evidentiary gaps.) Mbuell72 (talk) 23:05, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Origins

I am seeing a possible discrepancy in the introduction. It says that the breed was developed in the US, however a book on breeds I have lists the breed as having its "... beginnings in Spain and Andorra, where it worked with Basque shepherd. When the Basques followed the sheep-herding movement to Australia, the faithful dogs went along.. Then, when the Australian sheep were imported into the western U.S., once more the Basque herders and their dogs, now renamed the Australian Shepherds, made the trip."

Source: Dogs in Canada, 2005 Annual, pgs. 296-297

The History section of the article includes discussion of the Basque herding dogs, but from what I've read & learned from Aussie breeders, the breed developed from a variety of breeds here & received its name here. You'll see that the FCI, which organizes dogs by country of origin, also lists it as a US breed [1]. Elf | Talk 16:06, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I just wanted to add that I have read many books on Australian Shepherds and its origin is for the most part unknown and a rather complicated tale. For this purpose, I don't believe we should just accept its origin to be American or more specifically from the United States regardless of how the Kennel Club classifies it. From my current understanding, coupled with close to 10yrs of post secondary education, there is world history and then there is American history. Since its history is still debatable, it should be noted as such in the opening paragraph.

I understand that this breed's origins, like that of many other breeds, is difficult to untangle. However, every reference I can find (web, articles predating wikipedia, books...) all list it as an American breed. Would love to see any references that state otherwise. Elf | Talk 02:10, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Nothing published to cite, but some of the show dog lines appear to be a 25%/75% mix of Brittany and Rough Collie. 24.60.177.137 (talk) 15:55, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

These dogs have nothing to do with Australia. They come from ASTURIAS.

Re: comment from User Elf about book referencing dogs from Spain/Andorra --> Australia --> US west coast: That Aus Sheps MAY have had ancestors from Australia is making assumptions, but is generally accepted by various Aussie authorities. See my note under "Naming" for various sources. However, even if the "Australian connection" is true, this does not, in any way, counter the description of the breed as being developed in the US. E.g.: the originator of the German Shepherd breed left, in his breeding notes, descriptions of using grey wolves in the early breedings. This doesn't make the German Shepherd a wolf. Also, just because that description was published in a book, does not give it additional authority as "expert" on the topic. The book is repeating an oft-repeated oral history, which may, or may not, be accurate. As for being developed, as a BREED, it is indisputable that this occurred in the US, not elsewhere. The origins of the FOUNDATION dogs are landrace TYPES, not breeds, and may have come from many geographic landrace dogs. The PRIMARY landrace type of dogs leading to the breed foundation dogs were UK herding farmcollies. Those landrace types also led to the establishment of other similar, and closely related, breeds (e.g. English Shepherds, Border Collies, Welsh Sheepdogs, and others) ″Evidence that the Australian Shepherd we know today derives from British herding dogs, whether via the eastern United States or Australia, is underscored by the landmark 2017 Cell Reports study that examined the canine genome to see how dog breeds are related and, by extension, how they developed. The study found that dogs can be genetically sorted into 18 clades, or groups of related dogs. The Australian Shepherd belongs to the UK Rural clade, alongside the Collie, Shetland Sheepdog, and Border Collie. ″ - https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/dog-breeds/australian-shepherd-history-behind-breed/ Article quoted uses as primary source: https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/pdf/S2211-1247(17)30456-4.pdf Mbuell72 (talk) 23:15, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

I believe it was Jay _Sisler_, not "Lister" who trained the Aussies for Rodeo; his "home movies" on youtube are entertaining and show the breed at it's most agile: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejioz8N9h3U

Origin

Comments moved to section "Origins", as topic duplication.

Health: Epilepsy Prevalence

Article states "Australian Shepherds are the most common dog breed to acquire Epilepsy." I originally removed this, and then the change was reverted, so I figured it might be useful to discuss more here. I'm more than happy to keep the line if there's evidence to back it up, but for now I don't think the current reference provides any support.

The article ("Disease Progression and Treatment Response of Idiopathic Epilepsy in Australian Shepherd Dogs") does not make any attempt to measure or report the prevalence of epilepsy in any breed. Instead it looks at dogs where epilepsy is unexplained by other diseases ("ideopathic") and difficult to treat, and tries to understand why it is difficult to treat in those dogs. One hypothesis is that epilepsy is difficult to treat in Australian Shepherds because "The ABCB1‐1Δ mutation is more prevalent in [Australian Shepherds] than in many other dog breeds", and this ABCB1‐1Δ mutation (also know as the MDR1 mutation) causes dogs to poorly process pharmaceutical drugs. So they are hypothesizing that it's difficult to treat epilepsy in Australian Shepherds with drugs because Australian Shepherds common have a mutation that makes them process drugs in harmful ways. Ultimately their results show that most difficult-to-treat cases of epilepsy in Australian Shepherds cannot be explained by the high prevalence of the ABCB1‐1Δ/MDR1 mutation ("The age at seizure onset was unrelated to the ABCB1 (MDR1) genotype"; "Seizure control was significantly associated with age at seizure onset and coat color but evolved unrelated to the ABCB1 (MDR1) genotype"; "We were unable to show association between the mutation and drug response in [Australian Shepherds] with [Ideopathic Epilepsy].")

So to sum up, the main reference to something being more prevalent in Australian Shepherds than most breeds is actually about the MDR1 mutation (and even there they don't even say it's the most common among all breeds). This was not mentioned as a explanation for epilepsy, but instead to support a hypothesis that it simply made epilepsy more difficult to treat. Furthermore, when this study examined this hypothesis, they found the evidence did not support that hypothesis. There is no ranking of epilepsy being most common in any specific breed.

Unless I hear back, I'll re-make the revision (removing the "Australian Shepherds are the most common dog breed to acquire Epilepsy." statement) within a few weeks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Esgentry (talk • contribs) 21:10, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

I concur with you viewpoint. William Harris (talk) 07:11, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

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